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Subject:To Wiccans_Unite
Time:07:36 pm
You know if you paid any real attention to this group you would see we have more important things to do then send anyone to you for "fun".

We love pointing out your hypocrisy of "Tolerant Wiccans and Pagans" yet you ban anyone who may be a friend or just watching this community.

You are nothing but spoiled little children who do not seem to understand the stupidity in which you have embroiled yourselves. One has to wonder what a community that is open to all pagans and wiccans truly is like if they ban certain pagans and wiccans for being friends with certain people or expressing opinions about certain things.

If you truly wanted to learn you would not be banning people.

I pity you for you will gain no knowledge but false knowledge, which will only get you hurt.

sad.
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babspace
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-07 03:45 pm (UTC)
What sonicwylde said. And I would like to add:

I joined wiccans_unite about a year ago.. It was the first Wiccan LJ community I joined. Since I knew nothing of the past history between you and wiccan I chose to keep an open mind and not judge either group. I am glad I did.

Since wiccans unite had very few posts (and very little of these posts were usable to me) I started looking into other LJs and MLs for the information I craved. I have learned, acquired a huge fricken reading list, and have met a few important people from the Pagan community (I consider them to be important, even if they don't). So when you decided to have the first of your hissy fits after your little chat session with the owner of _wicca_haven_ I decided to share a bit of my knowledge. That is, after all what the community was supposed to be about right?

Instead of acknowledging my post and discussing it in an an intellectual manner you chose to shush me like a child. I have often wrestled with the idea of attempting to delete my posts in your three ring cicrus forum, but then I remind myself that by leaving them there others may learn what an ignorant Wiccan you truly are.

I don't claim to know everything. I know I never will. But I have learned enough to know that if I want to continue to learn (and grow), wiccans unite is NOT the place to do it.
(Reply) (Thread)


lkrobinson
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-07 08:57 pm (UTC)
I didn't know it was important to make fun of other people's beliefs. How silly of me. "If you truly" had more important things to do, you would worry about your own lives instead of trying to become mosquitos in the lives of others.
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sonicwylde
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-07 09:28 pm (UTC)
OOo someone wants to get into it.

1) You make the claim we are dissing others beliefs yet you did not provide evidence one to support that claim.

2) If you paid any attention to this LJ you would probably realize we do not spend a whole lot of time worrying about anything. What time we do spend is a few seconds out of our lives to point out hypocrisy (however if you consider hypocrisy a belief system then we are dissing that)

3) We do not claim to be open to all people then start banning and trashing those that did not believe as we did. You know why I was banned... because I happened to believe in seeing both sides of something and i joined both communities for the express nature of getting a full view of all information.

We, here also do not ban people who are friends with people we dislike. That is ultimately a very childish thing to do, which is quite funny coming from a group claiming to want to learn.

I do pay much attention to things and I can tell you that community is not learning but wallowing in ignorance and hushing people with experience.

I always love when people claim I am making fun of beliefs when I have yet to bring belief system into it.
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lkrobinson
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-07 10:30 pm (UTC)
No, I don't really want to get into it...but I thought I'd point out your own pretension. Obviously you like to put thought into these issues. That doesn't seem like someone who has more important things to do.

You in particular might not be making fun of other people's beliefs (though this is arguable because you call all members of wiccans_unite childish when I hardly think you know all of them. This page was created to make fun of the "fluffy bunnies" of wiccans_unite. That term in and of itself is making fun of another religion. You were speaking as "we" of this wiccans_untie community. Therefore I was speaking of all the past posts from this community, not just this one.

You also blame the actions of the mod on the entire group. The mod of wiccan is intolerant of what she calls "neo-wiccans" calling themselves Wiccan. She and a few others will take every opportunity to jump on every slip of the tounge when using this terminology. Continuing the use of terms not in compliance with the user info of that community will get you banned. Or told maybe that isn't the place for you. The same tactics are being used in wiccans_unite. Why do you not make fun of one, but do make fun of the other? ...because shady expressions of how experienced on is impresses you? Do you always believe everyone someone tells you? Only if it excludes others? There are plenty of solitairy practioners who have experience as well...and don't hurt themselves. Imagine- not needing the approval of a committee! Anyway, it is really hard to believe that this community hasn't sent "spies" and other such bullshit over to the other. In fact- I believe I remember seeing posts here about it but I actually did have some important things to do at the time so I didn't bother documenting it. Right now I'm not that busy though. ^_^

You're correct- right now the clashing of these two communities is preventing learning from happening on either side. I believe that the wiccans_unite was willing to leave wiccan alone and go off on their own path- however silly the other pretensious community might have thought it. Then that mod's friend's decided to make this community and "attack". "That is ultimately a very childish thing to do." Had this community never been formed the other would be open to all paths and all discussions. Direct snarky arguments and bringing up the subject of trad vs solitaire is what led wiccans_unite down the path of banning people for not listening. It's a reaction...not a good one in my opinion but still a reaction to this little gem of a community which serves no purpose other then to hurt and demean people.
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karlthepagan
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 01:01 am (UTC)
1) You apparently don't know (or choose to spin) why this community was started. Please read our info. Mocking "fluffyness" is a *far* second effect of pointing out the hypocrisy in wiccans_unite. I did include some "fluffy" text in the FUCKING ICON DESCRIPTIONS, but that's it and I changed it as soon as they started whining about it.

2) Your bias against wiccan leads me to believe anything you say here would be equally biased. So, please redouble your efforts to be intellectually honest with us. Searching for truth inside and outside yourself is a skill I've found to be absolutely neccessary for spiritual growth.

I'm not wiccan, and several others here aren't any kind of wiccan either. You can be solitary, initiated, uninitated nonsolitary, and you can HAVE opinions aside from authors, but don't tell anyone else that they're stupid for trashing your favorite author. Personally I decided I didn't even want to be constrained by the idea of the general definition of wicca, but that's just me.

The "attack" was due to the plagurism (an "attack" in and of itself). I was content to leave it be perfectly quiet here, but THEN wiccans_unite began flaming another of my friends when it the link was passed around.
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lkrobinson
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 03:13 am (UTC)
You cannot honestly say that this group has not made fun of beliefs of the members of the other group, can you?

Why bother the whole community because of Raven? Everyone bitched about the lj user info and she changed it. If you still have a problem and believe that she is in violation of the law- take it up there not with this petty bull. I think that you were the ones who said she was in violation of copyright in the first place.

She must have felt pretty confident that she could prove her case to actually go to the law instead of griping in this very childish way. It seems to me that she is behaving like an adult, whereas you are behaving like children.

She can ban whomsoever she pleases- the only reason she is on this banning spree is because you all want to keep trying to attack her. I find it funny that so many newly banned people come here to report it. Seems to me that if she was not right about who she was banning there wouldn't be so many of you showing up here to join the choir.

Thank you for your permission to worship how I please. /sarcasm

There might be several of you who aren't wiccan- I wasn't talking about that though. You don't have to be Wiccan to have an opinion on what it is. There are people all over these communities that believe that Wicca is an initiate-only religion. I don't believe Silvertree is Wiccan...but I could be wrong about that. My point is that that community was made to be a place where non-divisive things could be discussed without the oppressive fear of being jumped on because you choose to call yourself one thing or the other. It was suppose to be a place where Trad and Solitaire could disscuss the more interesting aspects that they have in common- not constantly battle about who is right and who is wrong.

Some people involved in Trads believe that there is only one right way to practice Wicca. They have a right to their beliefs but so do people who don't hold that belief. You might say that it's blatantly wrong to believe that...you might not. Some here have said that. I've read it in your comments. Believe me or not, I'm not interested enough to go back and skim through trying to find it.

I'm just saying- why would ANYONE want to have someone telling them their beliefs are unacceptable? I don't care how tolerant someone is- no one wants to be belittled. All Raven wants is for people to stop bringing up this dead topic. I don't think anyone cares if random people don't believe that they are Wiccan, or Pagan, or whatever. I think they just don't want to have to fight for the right to say it. That is what this all boils down to. That is what the arguments were over and why Raven banned and will ban people.

All this copyright bullshit is really stupid. This is LIVEJOURNAL people... seems to me everyone was just LOOKING for something to pick at. You cried wolf and she really got a wolf. Don't go throwing "copyright" around and it won't come to bite you on the ass. If she really is wrong and she took the copyrighted data- I'm sure it will come out in the end and you will get your retribution. If not nothing will come of it and she won't have anything to worry about. Why not focus on your case instead of tormenting people who just want a place to discuss their beliefs?
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karlthepagan
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 04:11 am (UTC)
"You cannot honestly say that this group has not made fun of beliefs of the members of the other group, can you?"

I absolutely can, tell me why it must be otherwise?

You really need to review the arguments that took place in wiccan and please realize that emerald_rose had made a giant rant in reaction to what other community members had said. That rant was disruptive so she was banned. If you think it was any kind of personal gripe on the part of silvertree I'd like to see the conversations that show that.


"Why bother?" You should look into the reason why wiccans_unite was created! W-U and its owner were at its inception merely a group of people who had a problem with wiccan, some of its members, and its moderator!

The LJ info for wiccans_unite was only changed after this community was created. Even then it was only changed in superficial ways. After several weeks the info was canged in wiccan so that it was not associated with W-U after then the point was pretty much mute. I stopped paying attention for a while until one day I came back and saw many posts asking to enable comments. From there on this has become a haven for anyone who has a problem with W-U... it's purpose now IN FACT is parallel to the original purpose of W-U (a haven for a few people who had a problem with wiccan and their moderator).

She in fact does not have the law on her side in the long run... read back in this comm a bit and you'll see why. The rub is that livejournal's requirements to challenge her claims would require much more effort than it took her to file the "legal" complaint.

Here's how to go about filing a fraudulent copyright complaint:
1) go to file an abuse report http://www.livejournal.com/abuse/report.bml
2) choose copyright violation
3) click the checkbox saying the post/community violates copyright on something that you are the original copyright holder

That's it! the page owner will be sent a DMCA violation note and be forced by LJ staff to take down the page or send them a SIGNED AFFADAVIT SWEARING THAT YOU HAVE PERMISSION TO USE THE MATERIAL!!!

That not only requires me to create an affadavit, but requires me to acquire an affadavit from the original author, silvertree. Since you're familliar with that person I hope you understand the inconveniences at play... its just not worth it for something as stupid as wiccans_unite.

If you'd honestly like to see this played out to its just conclusion you must account for the inconvenience it causes all of us AND AS YOU HAVE POINTED OUT WE HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO!!!

There is no case, it's not worth my time... but it's really turned out to be very entertaining to every once in a while get a friend of wiccans_unite get really offended, then come over here and get THE TRUE STORY FROM US and then realize that they weren't sticking up for truth and the honor of an upstanding wiccan victim, but for a liar. Here's the last such "convert" story: http://www.livejournal.com/community/__wicca_haven__/9478.html?nc=21 I'm not saying they agree with this community, but they came to realize they were being fed lies about this comm and the inception of wiccans_unite.
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karlthepagan
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 04:13 am (UTC)
(oops, emerald rose was her original user name, it's now _raven_myst_)
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lkrobinson
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 01:29 pm (UTC)
I actually did watch the whole thing play out. I think that there was instigation on both sides. I'm really not going to bother arguing with you on this...suffice to say I don't like the idea of Wiccans_Untie. It just all seems like a waste of time...and so is arguing about it. I just felt a need to speak to both sides as the constant posting about trolls was getting on my nerves.
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leeoakfire
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 05:00 am (UTC)
you wrote--
" I find it funny that so many newly banned people come here to report it. Seems to me that if she was not right about who she was banning there wouldn't be so many of you showing up here to join the choir."

Well, the reason some of us end up here is precisely *because* we got banned. And, once we were banned others let us know about it.

I have only been on lj for less than a month! I have been wandering around in communities and different pagan journals looking for interesting discussions. I went onto Wiccan_Unite and read some of their posts. I was very confused because they said they were open to any sincere and respectful pagans, but yet when I read the posts they were bashing BTW-Wiccans. I am a BTW Wiccan, and I respectfully asked why they were being hypocritical.

I received a reply that told me they were not being hypocritical (which I do not agree was accurate, as the post I responded to was definitely bashing a tradition, not specific people from that tradition). I was told that "You are welcome to stay here, but coming in to instigate disagreement in my community will not be tolerated." When I attempted to respond to that message, I discovered that I had indeed been banned.

I received an off-community message from Raven that I am not welcome in the community because I have Silvertree on my friends list. I don't know Silvertree; she has a *lot* of people that have friended her because she writes interesting posts. So, I am banned from the list, but yet Raven has a post up saying that I am welcome. The fact that I cannot reply to that post makes it appear that I was a troll.

http://www.livejournal.com/community/wiccans_unite/32158.html

The comment that I posted from you is some sort of fallacy (not sure what type but I know it is one; I am just learning to recognize them -- in pursuit of an education I welcome comments regarding this) Two things I do know is that 1) your comment is incorrect and a form of "victim-bashing" and 2) now that I have had this experience as a new lj user, I sure am *not* going to have anything to do with that community or Raven.
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karlthepagan
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 05:14 am (UTC)
"I received an off-community message from Raven that I am not welcome in the community because I have Silvertree on my friends list."

Wow, what if you're a UK feminist? what if... oh what if 1000 other things? I didn't realize that wiccans_unite was STILL a personal vendetta community.
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leeoakfire
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 05:05 am (UTC)
actually, now that I go back and compare that conversation with this one -- you were the one I was conversing with (I did mention I am very new to lj; I am just learning how to use this community and check things like who is talking between discussions).

I would have enjoyed continuing our discussion regarding solitary Wicca and group mind-work. Unfortunately, it is beyond my ability to do so now. Check me out at my lj and I will be happy to continue the discussion with you. Although I am trained as a BTW, I respect being solitare as a legitimate Pagan and Wiccan path and have worked both in coven and solitare.
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leeoakfire
Subject:correction
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 05:17 am (UTC)
I wrote:
I received a reply that told me they were not being hypocritical (which I do not agree was accurate, as the post I responded to was definitely bashing a tradition, not specific people from that tradition).

I realize that I have used wrong terminology .. the *post* I was respondng to was not bashing BTW's; the *comment* within the post that I was responding to was bashing BTW's

As I mentioned I am new to lj and just learning proper terminology.

I would have liked to continue the conversation with the person who posted --gabigabs (opps, same person! -- oh, you!); the original post was respectful and we could have had a good conversation. The comment linked all BTW's together in a prejudicial manner:

"Obviously differnt sects are going to have different opinions. My advice is to ignore them. They want to be holier than thou and act like they know oh so much more than you by calling you names"

I am BTW and I have not called anyone names!
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karlthepagan
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 12:38 am (UTC)
Who's making fun of beliefs? Well maybe we are... but there's an important distinction.

It's kind of pointless to mock someone who has any arbitrary beliefs, but its quite another thing to mock someone who shoots from the hip about the authenticity of one author or another, then plagurizes another community, and then commits an act of purjury (filing a false sworn statement) to protect their image.
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enyo
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 03:51 pm (UTC)
I haven't seen anyone make fun of anyone's beliefs. I've seen folks disagree with use of terminology. And I've seen your twit mod ban people because of who they know and discriminate because they don't agree with her.

Who's more pathetic? Us, for disagreeing with you? Or you, for claiming that you really don't care, yet reading this community every chance you get?
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lkrobinson
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 04:12 pm (UTC)
Let's not start that "you read this so you're pathetic get a life!" crap. It's obvious that this is the internet and people read it. I'm not saying not to disagree- I am saying that name calling and other mocking is a waste of time. You can disagree all you want. "I may not agree with what you have to say but I will defend until death your right to say it." I just think being mean about differing beliefs is counterproductive. I don't care to "get into it" insofar as that usually requires alot of back and forth, research and emotion and those are resources that could be put to something more productive then "Who is right, Karl or Raven?"
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karlthepagan
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 04:23 pm (UTC)
what beliefs again?
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lkrobinson
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 05:42 pm (UTC)
Now- I don't believe in focusing on the lighter side of life to the exclusion of balance. I believe that the exaggeration present in how people talk about those 'fluffy bunnies' is uncalled for. Why not just talk about balance with them. I'm not saying you should try this on the closed community, but there are other communities to do so without being offensive and making comments like these:



"I love the goddess and that should be the most importent thing, right?? I LOVE HER and I know that she loves me!! and all living things, which is why I only eat fruit that has fallen on the ground by itself, and milk from the goat that my neighbor keeps in his yard, and THAT IS ALL. Meat is Mean, that is why they are only 1 letter different!!

I am practicing that thing I was talking about on TT, is it working??"




"You know, in this thread, _emerald_rose asks some relatively basic newbie questions. She might actually get more meaningful answers if she didn't kick the BTW off of her community.

Has it dawned on her that, for serious answers, you need serious, intelligent people there to give them?

*considers the source*

Probably not. And this is how fluff continues to spread like a cancer. "



"wiccans_unite has a suggested reading list, now.

While some of the books are actual scholarly works that *I* have a hard time getting through (which makes me doubt that some of the mindless wonders over there will be able to do so), Edain McCoy, Cunningham, and Silver RavenWolf show up all over the place.

I feel nauseated. I'm not sure if it's the list or the antibiotics I just took, though. :P"

"her fluffy white light world of wicca."

"a dozen interested newbies & fluffheads "

"No new spies for now. She's closed the membership entirely. "

----Too Busy, huh?


Some people do believe that the Goddess is a white light and love, I suppose. When they experience the darker side of life I suppose their opinions will be revamped- but do you really need to be so snarky about it? What's the point? Are you focusing on the darker aspects to balance their focus on light? Talking down to people doesn't make them take into consideration what you're saying. If Raven's being a twit then why not ignore her? Silvertree could have handled her own battle if she chose to take it...but she didn't. I think she's about the only one who is being mature about it all- even if I do disagree with her definitions.

Anyway- it doesn't really matter because you like this and will continue no matter what I argue...so there's no point it arguing at all.



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karlthepagan
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 05:57 pm (UTC)
2nd quote: that's a criticism of her draconian moderation

3rd quote: disagreeing with a specific author is not mocking beliefs

last quote: so what? people wanted to read friends-only posts.

I'll also note you didn't dig up anything that I said. Others are free to express their opinions including criticism of raven for what in their opinions are newbie wiccan stereotypes. Are you complaining to those people or is this guilt by association?
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enyo
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 05:08 pm (UTC)
It's obvious that this is the internet and people read it.

But no one is holding a gun to your head and insisting that you read everything that we write. *You* choose to do that. *I*, personally, have a problem with someone who preaches tolerance and does exactly the opposite.

I just think being mean about differing beliefs is counterproductive.

1.) I don't see anyone in *this* group "being mean" because you believe differently. What I see primarily here is a disgust over lack of research and the unwillingness to do so, and a disagreement with terminolgy.

2.) Keep that in mind when Raven Twit next posts a diatribe about how BTWs are Meanie Fascist Poo-Poo Heads. Or anyone else who doesn't agree with her.

"Just because you are stupid does not make me a bitch."
-- Arwen Nightstar
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lkrobinson
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 06:11 pm (UTC)
But no one is holding a gun to your head and insisting that you read everything that we write. *You* choose to do that. *I*, personally, have a problem with someone who preaches tolerance and does exactly the opposite.


I have a problem with that as well. I'm not for banning people or for closed discussions. I think deleting posts and manipulating converstation is just as wrong and being rude and disrespectful to the point of driving people to distraction.

The terminology implies something about what it is speaking about. Terminology has alot to do with how people are viewed. It has been used throughout history to degrade and downplay certain groups. Disagreements on terminology can easily be generalized to being a disagreement about belief. If one were to say that solitary Wicca is not a valid path and apply a silly term like "neo-wicca" to it- it degrades the practice while exhalting the only-slightly-older by historical standerds BTW way. This is why I find it offensive when people force their terms on me. You can call me whatever you like, I suppose... and I don't have to like it. I also don't find it respectful. I have no problem with the beliefs and practices of others up until the point where they believe they must preach to me about my own beliefs. I like to discuss and argue and debate- but I don't want to be told to hush by anyone coming from any perspective. I've done research as well. I believe what I believe _is_ based on facts- but I also know that I don't know everything. There will never be a perfect agreement in a community. I'd like to be able to debate without being belittled. Flamewars are not what I'm after- knowledge is. I'd like to see both sides of the story.
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enyo
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 06:43 pm (UTC)
I have a problem with that as well. I'm not for banning people or for closed discussions. I think deleting posts and manipulating converstation is just as wrong and being rude and disrespectful to the point of driving people to distraction.

Bingo. Behold, that is one of the main problems that I have with wiccans_unite. There's not much unity when you're banning people left, right, and center.

The terminology implies something about what it is speaking about. Terminology has alot to do with how people are viewed.

You're right. It does. And, to me, when you say "Wicca is whatever you want it to be", and your response to disagreement is to stick your fingers in your ears and yell "LA LA LA, I'm not listening!" or to throw a tantrum, *that's* when you earn the term "fluffybunny".

If one were to say that solitary Wicca is not a valid path and apply a silly term like "neo-wicca" to it- it degrades the practice while exhalting the only-slightly-older by historical standerds BTW way.

You know, I don't think I've *ever* heard someone say that solitary Wicca is not a valid path. I *have* heard people say that it's not a valid term. And you know what? I agree with them. Why I am Not a Wiccan, an essay that I wrote a few years back, explains this perfectly.

I do welcome your comments about it.

I'd like to be able to debate without being belittled.

I love debate. I don't think that anyone here has belittled *you* personally for your own particular set of beliefs.

Flamewars are not what I'm after- knowledge is.

Don't underestimate the power of a good flame war. Flame wars *do* offer knowledge, particularly if the combatants are firm believers in citing sources and differentiating between opinion/fact. I'm proud to say that I actually stripped the fur off of a few bunnies in a good flame war, and they've become fully functioning non-fluffy pagans because of that.
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beltainelady
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 09:21 pm (UTC)
apply a silly term like "neo-wicca" to it- it degrades the practice while exhalting the only-slightly-older by historical standerds BTW way.

Exactly how is "neo-wicca" degrading? The eclectic and solitary versions of Wicca *are* newer than the traditional forms, yes? So, tell me, how can it be degrading to be called "New Wicca"?

Do you think the Neoplatonists felt degraded to be considered a newer version of Platonists?

Or the neoclassical movement in Art was degraded because they were compared to the classics?

Goodness. The problem many of us have with wiccans_unite besides the hypocrisy is how thin-skinned people are. If you're secure in your practices and beliefs, than being considered different from something else shouldn't bother you.

At. All.
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leeoakfire
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 06:54 pm (UTC)
I have no problem with people holding different beliefs. I do have a problem with people co-opting my religion -- making it into something it never was, and then calling their religion by the name of my religion to such an extent that my religion is barely recognizable anymore.

Now that, is "name calling and mocking"!

Please hold your (universal you, not personal because I do not know you or what you believe) beliefs strongly, but call them what they are! Why do people have to co-opt other people's religions? Is it so difficult to understand that those actions may peeve those people who do hold to the original? Many of us have fought long and hard to be able to worship as we believe, and call ourselves Wiccan, and the name is being stolen from within! That does peeve me. It is cultural/religious theft. The original Wiccans have become the minority within what is called Wiccan -- and that is *just plain wrong*.

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)


lkrobinson
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 08:04 pm (UTC)
Please see above. I disagree, but I also understand. It must be really very frustrating to have worked so hard and now have people who have not worked nearly as hard basterdize it. Wow I can't spell that word sorry. ^-^;
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