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Subject:To Wiccans_Unite
Time:07:36 pm
You know if you paid any real attention to this group you would see we have more important things to do then send anyone to you for "fun".

We love pointing out your hypocrisy of "Tolerant Wiccans and Pagans" yet you ban anyone who may be a friend or just watching this community.

You are nothing but spoiled little children who do not seem to understand the stupidity in which you have embroiled yourselves. One has to wonder what a community that is open to all pagans and wiccans truly is like if they ban certain pagans and wiccans for being friends with certain people or expressing opinions about certain things.

If you truly wanted to learn you would not be banning people.

I pity you for you will gain no knowledge but false knowledge, which will only get you hurt.

sad.
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sonicwylde
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-07 09:28 pm (UTC)
OOo someone wants to get into it.

1) You make the claim we are dissing others beliefs yet you did not provide evidence one to support that claim.

2) If you paid any attention to this LJ you would probably realize we do not spend a whole lot of time worrying about anything. What time we do spend is a few seconds out of our lives to point out hypocrisy (however if you consider hypocrisy a belief system then we are dissing that)

3) We do not claim to be open to all people then start banning and trashing those that did not believe as we did. You know why I was banned... because I happened to believe in seeing both sides of something and i joined both communities for the express nature of getting a full view of all information.

We, here also do not ban people who are friends with people we dislike. That is ultimately a very childish thing to do, which is quite funny coming from a group claiming to want to learn.

I do pay much attention to things and I can tell you that community is not learning but wallowing in ignorance and hushing people with experience.

I always love when people claim I am making fun of beliefs when I have yet to bring belief system into it.
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lkrobinson
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-07 10:30 pm (UTC)
No, I don't really want to get into it...but I thought I'd point out your own pretension. Obviously you like to put thought into these issues. That doesn't seem like someone who has more important things to do.

You in particular might not be making fun of other people's beliefs (though this is arguable because you call all members of wiccans_unite childish when I hardly think you know all of them. This page was created to make fun of the "fluffy bunnies" of wiccans_unite. That term in and of itself is making fun of another religion. You were speaking as "we" of this wiccans_untie community. Therefore I was speaking of all the past posts from this community, not just this one.

You also blame the actions of the mod on the entire group. The mod of wiccan is intolerant of what she calls "neo-wiccans" calling themselves Wiccan. She and a few others will take every opportunity to jump on every slip of the tounge when using this terminology. Continuing the use of terms not in compliance with the user info of that community will get you banned. Or told maybe that isn't the place for you. The same tactics are being used in wiccans_unite. Why do you not make fun of one, but do make fun of the other? ...because shady expressions of how experienced on is impresses you? Do you always believe everyone someone tells you? Only if it excludes others? There are plenty of solitairy practioners who have experience as well...and don't hurt themselves. Imagine- not needing the approval of a committee! Anyway, it is really hard to believe that this community hasn't sent "spies" and other such bullshit over to the other. In fact- I believe I remember seeing posts here about it but I actually did have some important things to do at the time so I didn't bother documenting it. Right now I'm not that busy though. ^_^

You're correct- right now the clashing of these two communities is preventing learning from happening on either side. I believe that the wiccans_unite was willing to leave wiccan alone and go off on their own path- however silly the other pretensious community might have thought it. Then that mod's friend's decided to make this community and "attack". "That is ultimately a very childish thing to do." Had this community never been formed the other would be open to all paths and all discussions. Direct snarky arguments and bringing up the subject of trad vs solitaire is what led wiccans_unite down the path of banning people for not listening. It's a reaction...not a good one in my opinion but still a reaction to this little gem of a community which serves no purpose other then to hurt and demean people.
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karlthepagan
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 01:01 am (UTC)
1) You apparently don't know (or choose to spin) why this community was started. Please read our info. Mocking "fluffyness" is a *far* second effect of pointing out the hypocrisy in wiccans_unite. I did include some "fluffy" text in the FUCKING ICON DESCRIPTIONS, but that's it and I changed it as soon as they started whining about it.

2) Your bias against wiccan leads me to believe anything you say here would be equally biased. So, please redouble your efforts to be intellectually honest with us. Searching for truth inside and outside yourself is a skill I've found to be absolutely neccessary for spiritual growth.

I'm not wiccan, and several others here aren't any kind of wiccan either. You can be solitary, initiated, uninitated nonsolitary, and you can HAVE opinions aside from authors, but don't tell anyone else that they're stupid for trashing your favorite author. Personally I decided I didn't even want to be constrained by the idea of the general definition of wicca, but that's just me.

The "attack" was due to the plagurism (an "attack" in and of itself). I was content to leave it be perfectly quiet here, but THEN wiccans_unite began flaming another of my friends when it the link was passed around.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)


lkrobinson
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 03:13 am (UTC)
You cannot honestly say that this group has not made fun of beliefs of the members of the other group, can you?

Why bother the whole community because of Raven? Everyone bitched about the lj user info and she changed it. If you still have a problem and believe that she is in violation of the law- take it up there not with this petty bull. I think that you were the ones who said she was in violation of copyright in the first place.

She must have felt pretty confident that she could prove her case to actually go to the law instead of griping in this very childish way. It seems to me that she is behaving like an adult, whereas you are behaving like children.

She can ban whomsoever she pleases- the only reason she is on this banning spree is because you all want to keep trying to attack her. I find it funny that so many newly banned people come here to report it. Seems to me that if she was not right about who she was banning there wouldn't be so many of you showing up here to join the choir.

Thank you for your permission to worship how I please. /sarcasm

There might be several of you who aren't wiccan- I wasn't talking about that though. You don't have to be Wiccan to have an opinion on what it is. There are people all over these communities that believe that Wicca is an initiate-only religion. I don't believe Silvertree is Wiccan...but I could be wrong about that. My point is that that community was made to be a place where non-divisive things could be discussed without the oppressive fear of being jumped on because you choose to call yourself one thing or the other. It was suppose to be a place where Trad and Solitaire could disscuss the more interesting aspects that they have in common- not constantly battle about who is right and who is wrong.

Some people involved in Trads believe that there is only one right way to practice Wicca. They have a right to their beliefs but so do people who don't hold that belief. You might say that it's blatantly wrong to believe that...you might not. Some here have said that. I've read it in your comments. Believe me or not, I'm not interested enough to go back and skim through trying to find it.

I'm just saying- why would ANYONE want to have someone telling them their beliefs are unacceptable? I don't care how tolerant someone is- no one wants to be belittled. All Raven wants is for people to stop bringing up this dead topic. I don't think anyone cares if random people don't believe that they are Wiccan, or Pagan, or whatever. I think they just don't want to have to fight for the right to say it. That is what this all boils down to. That is what the arguments were over and why Raven banned and will ban people.

All this copyright bullshit is really stupid. This is LIVEJOURNAL people... seems to me everyone was just LOOKING for something to pick at. You cried wolf and she really got a wolf. Don't go throwing "copyright" around and it won't come to bite you on the ass. If she really is wrong and she took the copyrighted data- I'm sure it will come out in the end and you will get your retribution. If not nothing will come of it and she won't have anything to worry about. Why not focus on your case instead of tormenting people who just want a place to discuss their beliefs?
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)


karlthepagan
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 04:11 am (UTC)
"You cannot honestly say that this group has not made fun of beliefs of the members of the other group, can you?"

I absolutely can, tell me why it must be otherwise?

You really need to review the arguments that took place in wiccan and please realize that emerald_rose had made a giant rant in reaction to what other community members had said. That rant was disruptive so she was banned. If you think it was any kind of personal gripe on the part of silvertree I'd like to see the conversations that show that.


"Why bother?" You should look into the reason why wiccans_unite was created! W-U and its owner were at its inception merely a group of people who had a problem with wiccan, some of its members, and its moderator!

The LJ info for wiccans_unite was only changed after this community was created. Even then it was only changed in superficial ways. After several weeks the info was canged in wiccan so that it was not associated with W-U after then the point was pretty much mute. I stopped paying attention for a while until one day I came back and saw many posts asking to enable comments. From there on this has become a haven for anyone who has a problem with W-U... it's purpose now IN FACT is parallel to the original purpose of W-U (a haven for a few people who had a problem with wiccan and their moderator).

She in fact does not have the law on her side in the long run... read back in this comm a bit and you'll see why. The rub is that livejournal's requirements to challenge her claims would require much more effort than it took her to file the "legal" complaint.

Here's how to go about filing a fraudulent copyright complaint:
1) go to file an abuse report http://www.livejournal.com/abuse/report.bml
2) choose copyright violation
3) click the checkbox saying the post/community violates copyright on something that you are the original copyright holder

That's it! the page owner will be sent a DMCA violation note and be forced by LJ staff to take down the page or send them a SIGNED AFFADAVIT SWEARING THAT YOU HAVE PERMISSION TO USE THE MATERIAL!!!

That not only requires me to create an affadavit, but requires me to acquire an affadavit from the original author, silvertree. Since you're familliar with that person I hope you understand the inconveniences at play... its just not worth it for something as stupid as wiccans_unite.

If you'd honestly like to see this played out to its just conclusion you must account for the inconvenience it causes all of us AND AS YOU HAVE POINTED OUT WE HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO!!!

There is no case, it's not worth my time... but it's really turned out to be very entertaining to every once in a while get a friend of wiccans_unite get really offended, then come over here and get THE TRUE STORY FROM US and then realize that they weren't sticking up for truth and the honor of an upstanding wiccan victim, but for a liar. Here's the last such "convert" story: http://www.livejournal.com/community/__wicca_haven__/9478.html?nc=21 I'm not saying they agree with this community, but they came to realize they were being fed lies about this comm and the inception of wiccans_unite.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)


karlthepagan
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 04:13 am (UTC)
(oops, emerald rose was her original user name, it's now _raven_myst_)
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lkrobinson
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 01:29 pm (UTC)
I actually did watch the whole thing play out. I think that there was instigation on both sides. I'm really not going to bother arguing with you on this...suffice to say I don't like the idea of Wiccans_Untie. It just all seems like a waste of time...and so is arguing about it. I just felt a need to speak to both sides as the constant posting about trolls was getting on my nerves.
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karlthepagan
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 04:24 pm (UTC)
Of course there was some instigation... creating the comm. Was there anything else?
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

leeoakfire
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 05:00 am (UTC)
you wrote--
" I find it funny that so many newly banned people come here to report it. Seems to me that if she was not right about who she was banning there wouldn't be so many of you showing up here to join the choir."

Well, the reason some of us end up here is precisely *because* we got banned. And, once we were banned others let us know about it.

I have only been on lj for less than a month! I have been wandering around in communities and different pagan journals looking for interesting discussions. I went onto Wiccan_Unite and read some of their posts. I was very confused because they said they were open to any sincere and respectful pagans, but yet when I read the posts they were bashing BTW-Wiccans. I am a BTW Wiccan, and I respectfully asked why they were being hypocritical.

I received a reply that told me they were not being hypocritical (which I do not agree was accurate, as the post I responded to was definitely bashing a tradition, not specific people from that tradition). I was told that "You are welcome to stay here, but coming in to instigate disagreement in my community will not be tolerated." When I attempted to respond to that message, I discovered that I had indeed been banned.

I received an off-community message from Raven that I am not welcome in the community because I have Silvertree on my friends list. I don't know Silvertree; she has a *lot* of people that have friended her because she writes interesting posts. So, I am banned from the list, but yet Raven has a post up saying that I am welcome. The fact that I cannot reply to that post makes it appear that I was a troll.

http://www.livejournal.com/community/wiccans_unite/32158.html

The comment that I posted from you is some sort of fallacy (not sure what type but I know it is one; I am just learning to recognize them -- in pursuit of an education I welcome comments regarding this) Two things I do know is that 1) your comment is incorrect and a form of "victim-bashing" and 2) now that I have had this experience as a new lj user, I sure am *not* going to have anything to do with that community or Raven.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)


karlthepagan
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 05:14 am (UTC)
"I received an off-community message from Raven that I am not welcome in the community because I have Silvertree on my friends list."

Wow, what if you're a UK feminist? what if... oh what if 1000 other things? I didn't realize that wiccans_unite was STILL a personal vendetta community.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

leeoakfire
Subject:actually ...
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 06:24 am (UTC)
...the reason I put Silvertree on my friends list is because I found "Menstrual Lib" through her. My progression through lj is that first my husband recommended nonfullypagan to me (because of something I was upset about that was not on lj), then I found Silvertree, then Mentrual Lib, then was Wiccan_Unite, then Temple of the Cat, and from there to here. what is next .. this has been an interesting journey! I didn't know about this controversy until reading this community this evening -- it has been interestin! (note: I have been Wiccan since 1975, so I have seen a few fights)

And, by the by (and totally off topic), I am confused about some stuff as to how lj works and was unable to figure it out in the FAQ Is there someone who is willing to correspond with me to explain a couple of questions about how the "friends" system works?
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karlthepagan
Subject:Re: actually ...
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 06:27 am (UTC)
sure, if you have AIM or MSN:

Karl13Pagan
karlthepagan@hotmail.com

I am only an egg ;) (pagan since ~1995, online since ~1992)
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leeoakfire
Subject:IMPORTANT CLARIFICATION NEEDED
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 08:27 am (UTC)
As this is copied over from a different post on this list -- the "you" that I am quoting is gabigabs, *not* sonicwylde - I am fairly new to lj (within the past month) and I clicked on gabigabs post to make my reply, but perhaps was not clear enough with that info. (and, yes I am yelling with caps but want to make sure this is really clear -- sonicwylde did not make the remark I am quoting)
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)


karlthepagan
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 04:12 pm (UTC)
you can read the entire conversation by clicking "read comments"
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

leeoakfire
Subject:sigh
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 06:22 pm (UTC)
thank you for explaining that. I am an inexperienced computer user, new to this program .. a "fluffy geek"!
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)


lkrobinson
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 12:08 pm (UTC)
I'm sorry...you're right it is partially victim-bashing. I really don't mean to be so hard on BTW members. Honestly, I just don't like the way some people have phrased things to me. People have said this acting as if they were speaking on behalf of BTW when they aren't members...some when they have nothing to do with even being pagan. I have to go to work right now, so I'll continue this later.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

(Deleted comment)

blackthornglade
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 03:24 pm (UTC)
You elitest Borg Wench, you... ;)

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

(Deleted comment)
leeoakfire
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 06:24 pm (UTC)
I get it -- it is also a line on a song by Lady Pithia and Todd Allen. My tape fried, does anyone know what I am talking about or where to purchase a new one? They were together as a band back in the 1980's; I used to be a friend of Lady Pithia back then, but have lost touch.
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bukyou
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 03:25 pm (UTC)
The comment that I posted from you is some sort of fallacy

Fallacy of affirming the consequent?
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

leeoakfire
Subject:thank you!
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 06:36 pm (UTC)
I am primarily self-taught, and have been studying these so that I can both recognize them and not use them.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/afthecon.html
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

leeoakfire
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 05:05 am (UTC)
actually, now that I go back and compare that conversation with this one -- you were the one I was conversing with (I did mention I am very new to lj; I am just learning how to use this community and check things like who is talking between discussions).

I would have enjoyed continuing our discussion regarding solitary Wicca and group mind-work. Unfortunately, it is beyond my ability to do so now. Check me out at my lj and I will be happy to continue the discussion with you. Although I am trained as a BTW, I respect being solitare as a legitimate Pagan and Wiccan path and have worked both in coven and solitare.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

leeoakfire
Subject:correction
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 05:17 am (UTC)
I wrote:
I received a reply that told me they were not being hypocritical (which I do not agree was accurate, as the post I responded to was definitely bashing a tradition, not specific people from that tradition).

I realize that I have used wrong terminology .. the *post* I was respondng to was not bashing BTW's; the *comment* within the post that I was responding to was bashing BTW's

As I mentioned I am new to lj and just learning proper terminology.

I would have liked to continue the conversation with the person who posted --gabigabs (opps, same person! -- oh, you!); the original post was respectful and we could have had a good conversation. The comment linked all BTW's together in a prejudicial manner:

"Obviously differnt sects are going to have different opinions. My advice is to ignore them. They want to be holier than thou and act like they know oh so much more than you by calling you names"

I am BTW and I have not called anyone names!
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)


lkrobinson
Subject:Re: correction
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-08 01:23 pm (UTC)
That was why I said different sects...I didn't mean to imply all people who were BTW or who had a trad. I meant some...and I should have been more clear. I forget sometimes that this is the internet and I have to be more clear. I was actually interested in discussing group minds as well. Because of this...and this partially seems like over kill...I've created a new community! (Oh joy...*another* one.) I would like this to actually be a place for open discussion- without restrictive terms. Heck- I don't care if people don't believe my religion is a true path as long as they don't harp on it. Everyone is allowed their opinion and mine are based on my experience and facts I have uncovered for myself. So...commoncircle...just for some respectful open discussion.
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