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Subject:gabigab
Time:08:22 pm
If you want to make a community, it is usually a bad idea to drag another communty thread into yours as a first topic.

It looks all you are doing is tthe same thing you say you do not want to do, that is to troll.

as for Initiation. Have you looked up the word. What is the definition.

By the word alone, you cannot initiate yourself, you can dedicate yourself, but you need another person to initiate you into a tradition.
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kyril
Subject:Urrr...
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-09 01:25 pm (UTC)
You can't initiate yourself into someone else's lineage. They have to let you in and establish their side of the ties and obligations.

You can initiate yourself without (other) humans present, into a general tradition--Auntie Doreen says so--and you can initiate yourself in a more general "activating/awakening" sense--I've done it, it made a whole bunch of things "gel", and I couldn't even cast a circle for a week. From what I experienced, you need a serious Divine push to get something meaningful out of it, and I probably couldn't have pulled it off if not for the day-long vigil that preceded it, but it was definitely an initiation. (I've thought of, but never remotely felt like trying, to repeat that vigil since.)

I haven't looked at that community to see what thread they dragged from where, so I won't address the first half of your post.
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leeoakfire
Subject:Re: Urrr...
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-09 08:23 pm (UTC)
I would basically agree with what you say, with one semantical exception --

you write:
You can initiate yourself without (other) humans present

I would rephrase that as
The God/dess, the Divine, can initiate you without other humans present. When one is sincerely and honestly following their True Will an initiation can occur in that manner.

I think by making this semantical change, most would be on the same page with this issue.
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kyril
Subject:Re: Urrr...
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-10 04:42 am (UTC)
Hmm...I don't know. I've experienced Gods putting me through stuff since then, but for my initiation I was clearly the principal actor. Yes, They had to be doing their part--and I think with the energy level I'd built up They'd been doing their part for the whole vigil--but I was the one taking the initiation upon myself. The only "surprise" involved was how long I was drained for afterwards; it was much more of a recognition and an initiation into power than a mystery thing. Or rather, such mysteries as there were, weren't at all new to me.

Now, if it had been a "permission to come and play" or an "eat hot flaming Mystery!" initiation, those you can't do to yourself, and I doubt even if the Divine were doing the latter to you, it would be a Degree initiation. Interesting, moving experience? Sure. But one can certainly be exposed to Mysteries without it being an initiation.
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leeoakfire
Subject:Re: Urrr...
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-10 06:11 am (UTC)
you write:
Yes, They had to be doing their part--and I think with the energy level I'd built up They'd been doing their part for the whole vigil--but I was the one taking the initiation upon myself

I respond:
I do think it would be presumptious for me to judge your experience, and I mean no insult. However, what you write does remind me of something I was taught -- The Gods need man as man needs the Gods. Respectfully, Lee
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sonicwylde
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-09 05:35 pm (UTC)
Initiation is the act of being intitiated into something new by someone else. One cannot have an initiation by ones lone self.
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seshen
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-09 07:09 pm (UTC)
A page from my site about this:

http://www.seshen.com/WiccanWitch/initiation.html
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leeoakfire
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-09 08:28 pm (UTC)
I like how you express this. Relevant to this conversation:

your words:
Initiation, by definition, is done TO one BY an outside force, be that an individual, group or Deity. It is meant to create a spontaneous reaction based on psychological impact. You simply cannot surprise yourself; pre-conceptions are already present (whether conscious or subconscious) that would hinder this.

I am in complete agreement. I enjoyed reading about your 2nd degree requirement. "Rudolph" -- lol!
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seshen
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-09 08:35 pm (UTC)
Sometimes, people can be intimidated by degreed/initiated Wiccans. I wanted to let folks know that shit happens to us too. ;)
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lkrobinson
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-09 07:49 pm (UTC)
I'm sorry- I thought an interesting conversation was taking place I wasn't trying to make fun or anything. I really found the topic interesting, yanno?

I never thought you could initiate yourself- I have a semi-firm grasp of the english language. I never even came across self-initiation until reading about it in lj communities. Dedication is the correct term. But them- I think one might also receive initiation from their Gods. It'd be hard to proove though, wouldn't it?

I would try and defend "self-initiation" because it doesn't make any sense.
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lkrobinson
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-09 10:09 pm (UTC)
haha-me and my firm grasp, huh? Typos count? --> "But then..."; "I wouldn't try..."
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blackthornglade
Link:(Link)
Time:2005-02-11 04:33 pm (UTC)
But them- I think one might also receive initiation from their Gods. It'd be hard to proove though, wouldn't it?


Not really. Initiation is a life changing event. It will be shown and felt through your actions and involvement with other people.
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